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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone

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the podcast from australia for science

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and reason

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yes it's the skeptic's own podcast

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episode number 617

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for the 9th of august 2020 richard

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saunders here with you from sydney

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australia

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how about that the sun has come out we

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were promised buckets and

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puddles and poodles and all sorts of uh

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rain events

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was a bit wet lately don't you just love

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hearing the

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weather conditions in sydney australia

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coming up on this week's show i talked

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to

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the end of last year when i was making

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promotional videos for skepticon

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2019 which was in melbourne don't we

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all wish we could visit our friends in

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melbourne at the moment

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anyway i was very impressed by sue's

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breadth and depth of knowledge

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in all things medical especially

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specifically and uh poignantly

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about uh quackery and i was very pleased

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to hear

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of her concerns about well the

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anti-vaxxers in particular now

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sue is in australia as it says in

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wikipedia sue is an australian doctor

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and medical specialist with more than

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three decades experience in the public

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health

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system she is a vocal advocate for

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improvements in

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emergency medicine and how it is viewed

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in the hospital

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work frame and patient-centered care now

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sue

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is a member of friends of science

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in medicine and we've certainly spoken

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about that fine group here

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on the skeptic zone before find out more

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when i interview

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suraji coming up at the top of the show

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after that it's michelle biggesmar back

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again with logical fallacies

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this time michelle's going to be looking

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at the appeal to consequences

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to outcomes what's going to happen i

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think this is going to happen there for

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this

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something like that after that it's the

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strange case of

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some new medication being tried out in a

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hospital and

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the patient has blue spots on his toes

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hmm

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find out a bit later on then to round

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off the show we're going to be looking

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at

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via um some recent articles

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the free man of the land the sovereign

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citizens or the soviets

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as they're known these are the people

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seems to me

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primarily in their cars being pulled

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over by police for

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speeding or you know little traffic

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infringements

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and then going into this strange bizarre

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i'm a sovereign citizen here's my

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paperwork i've downloaded this from the

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internet

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i'm not going to answer any of your

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questions um they won't roll down their

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windows which is a bit of a

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an indication they somehow feel that the

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laws don't apply to them

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for uh reasons that have just been

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more or less made up shared around

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believed by these people

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and they just get themselves into no end

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of trouble

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and why we're seeing it more and more at

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the moment is because

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these people are pulling these same

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stunts when it comes to well especially

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if we think about

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the state of uh things in melbourne

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at the moment where people are required

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to wear face masks

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when they briefly leave their homes so

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there are people complaining

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that they're sovereign citizens and they

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don't have to wear this mask and it's

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against this bit of the

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common law and on and on and on it goes

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poor police get quite exasperated

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and uh there are if you're interested

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there are many many

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many examples of that on youtube where

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these people are filming

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the whole thing going on well there's a

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police

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uh video of interactions with these

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people in there

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the people themselves filming from

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inside their cars as the police smash

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down their windows

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it's quite dramatic but that's enough

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for me at the moment i'm going to run

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downstairs

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and you know what these days because

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it's winter here in australia as soon as

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i run downstairs in the early morning

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which it is now

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i bet i know what i'm going to find i'm

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going to find a couple of cats

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either side of the radiator toasting

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away

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cozy cats that's what i call them on a

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cold winter's morning

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anyway i'm going to tiptoe around the

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cozy cats because i'm

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just going to mount me for breakfast or

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something and

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i think i'll just have some good old

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simple

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uh vegemite toast a little bit of cream

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cheese

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toast

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and just a well a smearing of vegemite

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sometimes i like quite a lot but

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today just a light smearing of vegemite

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i'll give that a go with a nice coffee

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while i do that i hope you enjoy the

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[Music]

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joining me now on the line all the way

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from sydney australia

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it's hello sue hey richard how are you

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doing in these strange times

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well i guess we're all doing as best as

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we possibly can

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and i thought it was about time i gave

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you an interview because i first met you

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towards the end of last year

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we made a we might have bumped into each

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other before you

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that's right yeah you gave a wonderful

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talk at skepticon 2019

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uh late last year or was it early this

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year everything seems like another world

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ago

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whenever it was in that um time before

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but it was in the time before we used to

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live in a time before

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now briefly briefly i i did talk about

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you a little bit

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in in the introduction but you're really

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a medical from way back aren't you

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that's right um i spent 35 years

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plus in the public hospital system

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before

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leaving a couple of years ago to take up

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telemedicine

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that's an interesting thing and we

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discussed it uh late last year when we

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met

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can you expand on this whole idea of

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telemedicine please

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yes and it's um very fortuitous that the

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the business that i work for actually

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started

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as several years before this pandemic

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time

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as a way of bringing better access to

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healthcare advice and treatment to the

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community

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and the business that i work for is

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actually

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seems paradoxical it's emergency

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telemedicine

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and it's a way for people who have

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urgent concerns or

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symptoms to contact an emergency

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specialist directly

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and either get advice or reassurance or

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perhaps get a prescription or be

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directed

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to the right health service depending on

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what

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their likely diagnosis is so this

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is a service that's really flourished

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during the time of pandemic because it

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meets needs that we didn't even realize

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were coming

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absolutely and and it i guess it's

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it's always been a vital need emergency

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medicine but to think you can do it over

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the phone or

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indeed over video conferencing yes

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that's right sometimes it's only audio

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and sometimes it's also

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video but i guess anyone listening to

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your podcast will understand that you

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can actually interpret a lot from a

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person's voice

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from the way they speak whether they're

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breathless

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whether their speech makes sense or if

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they're confused and whether they're

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distressed or

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if they sound cheerful and happy

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the more you think about it the more you

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understand that when you're

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talking to somebody you can interpret a

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lot

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over the phone but obviously video

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adds something more and now that we have

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so many technologies on

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in everybody's pocket it's um

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really useful to be able to make use of

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that technology for this reason

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and i i've just got a funny image in my

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head of you uh on a video conference

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with the patient and you say show me

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you can even do things like um

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if a child has abdominal pain you can

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tell the

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parent what to do and where to press

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and get them to tell you what they find

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or

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um if we're backing up another health

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care provider like a

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a nurse or a paramedic in a remote area

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we can ask them to do certain maneuvers

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to examine the patient and report to us

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or watch them do it which is even better

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that's

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that is absolutely fascinating it's sort

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of like a you're almost there you're

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virtually there

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to do a sort of a diagnosis and wow we

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really that's right

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we really are living in the 21st century

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folks now when did your

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interest in well quackery in general

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start but more recently i know you've

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been very active

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fighting the anti-vaxxers that's right

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um i first

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heard about the organization called the

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avn

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which is a deceptively named but

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anti-vaxx

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network based in new south wales

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originally

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when i used to be involved in medical

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regulation

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board

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for the medical profession and i heard

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that the health care complaints

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commission in new south wales

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had issued a warning against this

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organization

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and i went looking for information about

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them and that's

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when i found my way to their facebook

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page

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they had

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and from there i found my way to a

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parallel group called stop the avn

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and i found very like-minded many

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like-minded friends there

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and i've found that people who

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are skeptical in the correct sense of

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the word and who

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value rational evidence about things

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also tend to have a similar sense of

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humor and be like-minded in many

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different ways so

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i've found there's a real network of

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rational people

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who don't just get frustrated by

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misinformation

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00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:02,480
but who take an active role in trying to

291
00:11:08,870 --> 00:11:06,160
either correct it or limit its spread

292
00:11:09,350 --> 00:11:08,880
yeah it is it is and it's wonderful to

293
00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:09,360
see that

294
00:11:13,030 --> 00:11:11,040
like-minded people getting together i

295
00:11:15,590 --> 00:11:13,040
think to do some real

296
00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:15,600
some real good and of course we just

297
00:11:18,150 --> 00:11:17,200
think recently over the last couple of

298
00:11:21,110 --> 00:11:18,160
weeks the

299
00:11:22,870 --> 00:11:21,120
the vaxxed bus has been doing it that's

300
00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:22,880
right a mini tour

301
00:11:25,910 --> 00:11:24,560
in uh in queensland and the australian

302
00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:25,920
skeptics put out a little

303
00:11:31,750 --> 00:11:29,040
a little notice notice about that but

304
00:11:33,590 --> 00:11:31,760
we i guess we sit back if that's the

305
00:11:35,509 --> 00:11:33,600
right term we wait to see what their

306
00:11:39,350 --> 00:11:35,519
next move will be

307
00:11:41,509 --> 00:11:39,360
true but we also do our best to predict

308
00:11:42,470 --> 00:11:41,519
where their activity will be so that we

309
00:11:45,350 --> 00:11:42,480
can

310
00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:45,360
circumvent it rather than wait for it to

311
00:11:48,949 --> 00:11:45,760
happen

312
00:11:52,150 --> 00:11:48,959
and react and that's why

313
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:52,160
many of us spend time watching and

314
00:11:58,470 --> 00:11:54,160
anticipating activities

315
00:12:00,870 --> 00:11:58,480
which helps us to map out where the

316
00:12:03,750 --> 00:12:00,880
future direction might be

317
00:12:04,550 --> 00:12:03,760
because obviously it's like um

318
00:12:07,590 --> 00:12:04,560
front-page

319
00:12:09,590 --> 00:12:07,600
news that it's always better to prevent

320
00:12:10,310 --> 00:12:09,600
the mistakes being published then to

321
00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:10,320
issue

322
00:12:15,590 --> 00:12:13,440
a correction on page three it has much

323
00:12:17,829 --> 00:12:15,600
less impact if it's already gone out

324
00:12:18,710 --> 00:12:17,839
is that sort of like a stitch in time

325
00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:18,720
saves nine

326
00:12:23,030 --> 00:12:20,800
that's a very good clinical analogy

327
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:23,040
there richard

328
00:12:26,389 --> 00:12:26,000
it really is so just recently of course

329
00:12:28,150 --> 00:12:26,399
with

330
00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:28,160
the whole world has is changed

331
00:12:32,949 --> 00:12:30,079
dramatically and i'm sure

332
00:12:34,629 --> 00:12:32,959
uh people in your profession are acutely

333
00:12:35,829 --> 00:12:34,639
aware of what's going on with the covet

334
00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:35,839
19. you must be

335
00:12:39,990 --> 00:12:37,360
i don't know beyond appalled and

336
00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:40,000
gobsmacked and amazed at some of the

337
00:12:45,990 --> 00:12:43,519
the craziness coming out now with people

338
00:12:46,870 --> 00:12:46,000
still insisting that the whole thing is

339
00:12:49,430 --> 00:12:46,880
a scam

340
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:49,440
and a hoax and uh it's not very serious

341
00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:51,360
yes it's bizarre isn't it and

342
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:54,560
i think one of the greatest ironies that

343
00:12:58,790 --> 00:12:55,519
i've noticed

344
00:13:00,790 --> 00:12:58,800
is that for years the anti-vax movement

345
00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:00,800
has tried to tell us that

346
00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:03,040
it wasn't vaccines that saved us from

347
00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:05,440
infectious diseases it was public health

348
00:13:10,389 --> 00:13:06,800
measures

349
00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:10,399
like um hygiene and now that they're

350
00:13:14,389 --> 00:13:11,360
being asked

351
00:13:16,310 --> 00:13:14,399
to use public health measures and follow

352
00:13:19,430 --> 00:13:16,320
hygiene directives

353
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:19,440
they're rebelling against that so all

354
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:21,200
the more evidence that it was never

355
00:13:23,990 --> 00:13:23,519
about any kind of science it was always

356
00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:24,000
about

357
00:13:28,470 --> 00:13:27,040
defying authority and not wanting to be

358
00:13:31,350 --> 00:13:28,480
told what to do

359
00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:31,360
it's nothing about reality or the real

360
00:13:36,389 --> 00:13:34,079
science behind infectious disease

361
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:36,399
because by the previous logic they

362
00:13:39,590 --> 00:13:38,560
should be championing the fact that

363
00:13:41,829 --> 00:13:39,600
we're

364
00:13:43,110 --> 00:13:41,839
controlling an infectious disease with

365
00:13:45,629 --> 00:13:43,120
hygiene

366
00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:45,639
and practical measures are not with

367
00:13:50,710 --> 00:13:47,600
pharmaceuticals

368
00:13:53,110 --> 00:13:50,720
so it's also an irony that

369
00:13:54,110 --> 00:13:53,120
many of the same population are now on

370
00:13:56,949 --> 00:13:54,120
the

371
00:13:58,629 --> 00:13:56,959
hydroxychloroquine bandwagon right what

372
00:14:02,310 --> 00:13:58,639
a bizarre turn that is

373
00:14:05,670 --> 00:14:02,320
that the health truthers

374
00:14:08,710 --> 00:14:05,680
want to push a pharmaceutical it's just

375
00:14:10,389 --> 00:14:08,720
um the convolutions never end

376
00:14:11,829 --> 00:14:10,399
you make some some points that hadn't

377
00:14:13,269 --> 00:14:11,839
occurred to me of course

378
00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:13,279
we've got these people who have been

379
00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:15,040
protesting loudly that you know we

380
00:14:18,470 --> 00:14:16,880
live a natural life and simple measures

381
00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:18,480
are the best and everything when

382
00:14:21,670 --> 00:14:20,720
they are presented with a very simple

383
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:21,680
measure wear

384
00:14:28,629 --> 00:14:25,760
a bloody face mask they go to pieces

385
00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:28,639
isn't it bizarre and obviously as an

386
00:14:35,350 --> 00:14:31,760
experienced clinician i also know that

387
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:35,360
there are few if any contraindications

388
00:14:38,550 --> 00:14:36,959
to using a mask

389
00:14:41,829 --> 00:14:38,560
all of this stuff about medical

390
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:41,839
exemptions and having asthma is just

391
00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:43,760
back to front that it's only a few

392
00:14:47,750 --> 00:14:45,600
months ago that the asthmatics were

393
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:47,760
wearing masks during the

394
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:50,800
the bushfire smoke right and the masks

395
00:14:54,389 --> 00:14:53,279
were protective of them so how a mask

396
00:14:56,230 --> 00:14:54,399
would suddenly

397
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:56,240
be dangerous for people with asthma

398
00:15:02,389 --> 00:14:58,240
makes no sense at all

399
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:02,399
and i know that in hospital practice

400
00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:05,760
if somebody comes into emergency with

401
00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:08,560
a potentially infectious disease they

402
00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:10,560
almost always wear a mask

403
00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:12,320
and they're there because they're sick

404
00:15:17,269 --> 00:15:15,120
so again the idea that the mask

405
00:15:18,389 --> 00:15:17,279
could be dangerous for anyone is just

406
00:15:20,310 --> 00:15:18,399
bizarre

407
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:20,320
it really is i've been wearing a mask

408
00:15:24,629 --> 00:15:22,560
now um out and about

409
00:15:27,269 --> 00:15:24,639
and apart from my glasses fogging up

410
00:15:29,829 --> 00:15:27,279
which is a bit annoying i've yet to

411
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:29,839
uh have a serious uh side effect funny

412
00:15:33,670 --> 00:15:30,560
that isn't it

413
00:15:36,710 --> 00:15:33,680
and in fact people can do long

414
00:15:38,829 --> 00:15:36,720
detailed neurosurgery for hours

415
00:15:41,590 --> 00:15:38,839
where they have to have strong

416
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:41,600
concentration or cardiac

417
00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:44,880
people transplanting hearts can wear

418
00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:48,000
surgical masks for hours and hours

419
00:15:52,550 --> 00:15:50,480
without fainting from breathing their

420
00:15:56,069 --> 00:15:52,560
co2

421
00:15:56,790 --> 00:15:56,079
and so suddenly these people who've

422
00:15:59,350 --> 00:15:56,800
never

423
00:16:00,949 --> 00:15:59,360
had that experience before uh are

424
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:00,959
touting

425
00:16:04,230 --> 00:16:03,440
physiological problems that clearly

426
00:16:06,710 --> 00:16:04,240
don't exist

427
00:16:07,829 --> 00:16:06,720
as if they've got expertise it's funny

428
00:16:09,509 --> 00:16:07,839
you should mention that

429
00:16:10,870 --> 00:16:09,519
i've just been reminded at the time i

430
00:16:14,069 --> 00:16:10,880
played a doctor

431
00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:14,079
in a tv show once and uh i was uh

432
00:16:18,870 --> 00:16:16,800
doing or helping with a heart transplant

433
00:16:20,829 --> 00:16:18,880
operation and i had to wear a face mask

434
00:16:23,269 --> 00:16:20,839
for hours while we did all the

435
00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:23,279
rehearsals

436
00:16:26,949 --> 00:16:26,320
and clearly you survived somehow i

437
00:16:29,110 --> 00:16:26,959
survived

438
00:16:31,110 --> 00:16:29,120
even though i was i was just acting

439
00:16:33,509 --> 00:16:31,120
finally please tell us about

440
00:16:35,430 --> 00:16:33,519
your activity and your involvement with

441
00:16:38,870 --> 00:16:35,440
the uh the very worthwhile

442
00:16:41,509 --> 00:16:38,880
group the friends of science in medicine

443
00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:41,519
yes it is a very worthwhile group this

444
00:16:47,189 --> 00:16:42,959
is

445
00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:47,199
a group of people who include clinical

446
00:16:53,110 --> 00:16:50,720
medicine providers but also

447
00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:53,120
is a really wide community who are not

448
00:16:57,430 --> 00:16:54,800
necessarily from the

449
00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:57,440
health world but just believe in using

450
00:17:01,910 --> 00:16:58,480
science

451
00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:01,920
in the provision of healthcare and

452
00:17:05,990 --> 00:17:04,480
interestingly a lot of people have come

453
00:17:07,990 --> 00:17:06,000
on board with that idea

454
00:17:09,350 --> 00:17:08,000
during the pandemic because they

455
00:17:12,630 --> 00:17:09,360
realized that

456
00:17:16,470 --> 00:17:12,640
science and evidence is the only way of

457
00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:16,480
containing medical risk so

458
00:17:19,909 --> 00:17:19,520
our group in the early days was very

459
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:19,919
much

460
00:17:24,710 --> 00:17:21,839
concentrated on the teaching of

461
00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:24,720
pseudoscience in tertiary institutions

462
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:28,160
right and unfortunately a little of that

463
00:17:32,230 --> 00:17:29,760
still exists

464
00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:32,240
not in the mainstream the major

465
00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:33,919
universities but

466
00:17:39,510 --> 00:17:37,520
people can still obtain a science degree

467
00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:39,520
in non-science which is

468
00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:43,440
such a paradox that you could learn

469
00:17:50,950 --> 00:17:47,039
theories of how the body works that are

470
00:17:53,190 --> 00:17:50,960
counted to the known directly observed

471
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:53,200
evidence of how the body works

472
00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:55,200
so that's something that friends of

473
00:18:01,350 --> 00:17:58,000
science in medicine is constantly

474
00:18:03,669 --> 00:18:01,360
campaigning against at every opportunity

475
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:03,679
but of course we've also had the

476
00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:04,559
opportunity

477
00:18:10,950 --> 00:18:07,919
to promote good policy like um

478
00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:10,960
no jab no pay we appeared at the senate

479
00:18:17,270 --> 00:18:13,280
inquiry on that policy

480
00:18:20,430 --> 00:18:17,280
and we also take a wide view now

481
00:18:23,190 --> 00:18:20,440
beyond tertiary education into health

482
00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:23,200
misinformation and the promotion of

483
00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:23,919
evidence

484
00:18:29,669 --> 00:18:27,039
in healthcare wherever we can

485
00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:29,679
well your uh your job's cut out for you

486
00:18:32,950 --> 00:18:30,400
and it's uh

487
00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:32,960
that's for sure there'll always be a

488
00:18:35,430 --> 00:18:33,760
need

489
00:18:37,110 --> 00:18:35,440
for friends of science and medicine and

490
00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:37,120
people like that because

491
00:18:41,110 --> 00:18:39,520
it's it's never-ending it's it's a river

492
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:41,120
that keeps flowing isn't it

493
00:18:49,270 --> 00:18:45,200
it is but we can we have seen

494
00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:49,280
tangible progress both from stop the avn

495
00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:51,280
and from sense of friends of science in

496
00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:52,880
medicine that

497
00:18:57,830 --> 00:18:56,480
probably the organized misinformation

498
00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:57,840
and anti-science

499
00:19:03,830 --> 00:19:01,280
groups have been going on longer than

500
00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:03,840
the attempts to correct them and so

501
00:19:06,789 --> 00:19:04,480
we've

502
00:19:08,390 --> 00:19:06,799
played a bit of catch up but in the

503
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:08,400
relatively short time

504
00:19:12,150 --> 00:19:10,799
that the groups that i'm involved in

505
00:19:14,549 --> 00:19:12,160
have existed

506
00:19:16,710 --> 00:19:14,559
we've made progress in influencing

507
00:19:19,669 --> 00:19:16,720
policy and also

508
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:19,679
importantly in having the media

509
00:19:26,789 --> 00:19:22,960
understand about false balance and about

510
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:26,799
which experts have credibility right so

511
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:29,600
what keeps us going very much is the

512
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:31,600
sense that we have made progress we're

513
00:19:35,190 --> 00:19:32,640
not just

514
00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:35,200
shouting in the wilderness but we have

515
00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:36,320
the agency

516
00:19:42,630 --> 00:19:40,480
to have an influence on misinformation

517
00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:42,640
certainly a group you should know about

518
00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:44,400
well sue wonderful to catch up with you

519
00:19:49,029 --> 00:19:46,640
i hope we can catch up in person one day

520
00:19:49,750 --> 00:19:49,039
soon likewise richard who knows when

521
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:49,760
that will be

522
00:19:54,950 --> 00:19:52,960
i i mean i know this is they keep saying

523
00:19:55,909 --> 00:19:54,960
uncharted and unprecedented which is

524
00:19:58,870 --> 00:19:55,919
true

525
00:19:59,990 --> 00:19:58,880
but um there's there's just no there's

526
00:20:01,590 --> 00:20:00,000
just no horizon

527
00:20:03,190 --> 00:20:01,600
really we can look at to say there

528
00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:03,200
that's where we're going and after that

529
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:05,360
horizon we'll be on the other side it's

530
00:20:10,070 --> 00:20:06,960
it's a bit muddy

531
00:20:10,870 --> 00:20:10,080
it is a bit and one of the things to

532
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:10,880
realize

533
00:20:16,789 --> 00:20:14,400
is that knowledge of the way forward has

534
00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:16,799
always been an adaptation

535
00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:20,320
and so when people get worried about

536
00:20:23,990 --> 00:20:22,720
policy being made as the evidence

537
00:20:26,470 --> 00:20:24,000
changes

538
00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:26,480
that's reality in science that we've

539
00:20:32,710 --> 00:20:29,440
always had to adapt to new observations

540
00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:32,720
and build upon knowledge so re

541
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:35,200
rather than being scared by that i think

542
00:20:40,549 --> 00:20:37,520
the audience should be happy that

543
00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:40,559
health policies being made according to

544
00:20:44,070 --> 00:20:43,120
evidence as it emerges i think that's a

545
00:20:46,630 --> 00:20:44,080
very good

546
00:20:48,710 --> 00:20:46,640
sentiment to leave the interview on so

547
00:20:51,490 --> 00:20:48,720
suraji all the way

548
00:20:53,750 --> 00:20:51,500
over there in sydney thank you very much

549
00:21:04,330 --> 00:20:53,760
[Laughter]

550
00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:08,710
[Music]

551
00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:11,350
hello richard saunders here life member

552
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:13,280
of australian skeptics

553
00:21:18,789 --> 00:21:16,000
and that's for life i'm here to tell you

554
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:18,799
about the australian skeptic's annual

555
00:21:22,870 --> 00:21:21,840
bent spoon award awarded each year at

556
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:22,880
our convention

557
00:21:31,669 --> 00:21:29,590
[Music]

558
00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:31,679
this year is a first for the benspoon

559
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:33,679
award and the convention

560
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:36,400
yes like everything else these days it's

561
00:21:39,669 --> 00:21:37,440
online

562
00:21:41,270 --> 00:21:39,679
but imagine you can enjoy this

563
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:41,280
convention from the comfort

564
00:21:46,950 --> 00:21:44,480
of your own couch some of the past

565
00:21:48,390 --> 00:21:46,960
winners or maybe i should say losers of

566
00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:48,400
the ben spoon award

567
00:21:55,029 --> 00:21:51,840
have been racing car driver

568
00:21:56,310 --> 00:21:55,039
peter brock the lutec free energy

569
00:21:59,990 --> 00:21:56,320
generator

570
00:22:02,710 --> 00:22:00,000
mike willis the abc television program

571
00:22:03,669 --> 00:22:02,720
second opinion the chiropractors

572
00:22:07,590 --> 00:22:03,679
association

573
00:22:12,070 --> 00:22:07,600
of australia the sbs television program

574
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:12,080
medicine or myth now who i hear you cry

575
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:13,840
is in the running this year for the ben

576
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:15,120
spoon award

577
00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:17,679
awarded to the most preposterous piece

578
00:22:20,789 --> 00:22:19,679
of paranormal or pseudo-scientific

579
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:20,799
piffle

580
00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:23,280
try saying that after a few drinks in

581
00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:26,080
the running this year for the award that

582
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:29,360
no one wants to win are

583
00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:32,880
pete evans and the biocharger meryl

584
00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:37,120
dorey fran sheffield and homeopathy plus

585
00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:40,400
judy wileyman mms australia

586
00:22:47,909 --> 00:22:44,640
genesis 2 church chapter 316

587
00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:47,919
kyle and jackie o but there is still

588
00:22:50,789 --> 00:22:48,400
time

589
00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:50,799
to nominate more people or institutions

590
00:22:54,549 --> 00:22:52,000
for this award

591
00:22:56,149 --> 00:22:54,559
and who's going to win how should i know

592
00:23:01,510 --> 00:22:56,159
i'm not psychic

593
00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:05,110
skepticon 2020 hosted by the gold coast

594
00:23:13,780 --> 00:23:06,080
skeptics

595
00:23:37,810 --> 00:23:20,830
[Music]

596
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:37,820
logical fallacies

597
00:23:44,149 --> 00:23:41,360
[Music]

598
00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:44,159
what are logical fallacies and why is it

599
00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:46,000
important that critical thinkers should

600
00:23:50,950 --> 00:23:48,640
know about them

601
00:23:52,549 --> 00:23:50,960
a logical fallacy is an error we can

602
00:23:54,549 --> 00:23:52,559
make in reasoning

603
00:23:58,950 --> 00:23:54,559
but it usually crops up when we are

604
00:24:03,350 --> 00:24:01,029
some people might even knowingly use

605
00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:03,360
them to try and score cheap points in an

606
00:24:07,510 --> 00:24:04,240
argument

607
00:24:10,070 --> 00:24:07,520
due to intellectual laziness

608
00:24:11,830 --> 00:24:10,080
they are traps we can fall into but if

609
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:11,840
we know what to look out for

610
00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:14,000
we can spot them when they occur and

611
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:18,720
stop ourselves from using them

612
00:24:23,269 --> 00:24:21,120
this time we'll look at the appeal to

613
00:24:26,789 --> 00:24:23,279
consequences

614
00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:26,799
this is when it's concluded that an idea

615
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:30,240
or proposition is true or false because

616
00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:32,880
the consequences of it being true or

617
00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:33,600
false

618
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:37,120
are desirable or undesirable to the one

619
00:24:43,110 --> 00:24:39,840
making the claim we are all guilty of

620
00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:43,120
using this fallacy from time to time

621
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:45,200
it's normal to embellish ideas or

622
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:46,480
beliefs we like

623
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:48,880
and to denigrate ideas and beliefs we

624
00:24:53,029 --> 00:24:50,159
don't

625
00:24:54,789 --> 00:24:53,039
in this case it's using the expected or

626
00:24:57,269 --> 00:24:54,799
possible outcomes

627
00:24:58,310 --> 00:24:57,279
whether they happen or not to bolster

628
00:25:01,590 --> 00:24:58,320
our point of view

629
00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:01,600
this fallacy comes in two forms positive

630
00:25:06,470 --> 00:25:04,960
and negative skeptics complain about

631
00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:06,480
alternative medicine and

632
00:25:10,470 --> 00:25:09,120
things like ear candles being sold in my

633
00:25:13,029 --> 00:25:10,480
pharmacy

634
00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:13,039
but i can tell you many people say they

635
00:25:17,269 --> 00:25:14,080
really work

636
00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:17,279
and come here to buy them also

637
00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:20,640
my profits depend on it here we have an

638
00:25:25,269 --> 00:25:22,720
example of the positive form

639
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:25,279
the pharmacist is using the perceived

640
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:28,080
positive outcomes or consequences to his

641
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,120
customers

642
00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:31,360
and the real financial outcome to his

643
00:25:35,510 --> 00:25:32,240
business

644
00:25:36,710 --> 00:25:35,520
to justify the products on sale in the

645
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:36,720
case of something like

646
00:25:40,149 --> 00:25:39,600
ear candles where you stick a tube of

647
00:25:43,190 --> 00:25:40,159
wax

648
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:43,200
in your ear canal and light the other

649
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:44,799
end

650
00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:48,080
yes this really is a thing

651
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:50,880
glowing testimonials and good sails have

652
00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:51,360
no

653
00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:53,520
bearing on the fact that these things

654
00:25:58,390 --> 00:25:54,880
are dangerous

655
00:26:02,230 --> 00:25:58,400
nonsense gmos are evil

656
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:02,240
and must be stopped now who knows what

657
00:26:04,630 --> 00:26:04,080
awful things will happen to people

658
00:26:08,390 --> 00:26:04,640
eating

659
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:08,400
genetically modified foods they might

660
00:26:14,470 --> 00:26:12,720
end up glowing in the dark or worse

661
00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:14,480
here we have an example of the negative

662
00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:16,080
form it is being

663
00:26:21,110 --> 00:26:18,320
argued that gmos are bad because of the

664
00:26:24,310 --> 00:26:21,120
negative consequences on humans

665
00:26:25,269 --> 00:26:24,320
however as no one has been able to read

666
00:26:28,870 --> 00:26:25,279
a book in the dark

667
00:26:31,510 --> 00:26:28,880
owing to glowing skin or indeed

668
00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:31,520
had any reported negative consequences

669
00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:34,720
at all from eating gmos

670
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:36,720
the original premise of the argument

671
00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:39,120
does not hold up

672
00:26:42,870 --> 00:26:41,120
you see what happens when we stop

673
00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:42,880
accepting creationism

674
00:26:49,190 --> 00:26:46,000
and turn to the theory of evolution

675
00:26:52,149 --> 00:26:49,200
immoral conduct as society turns to

676
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:52,159
survival of the fittest caring and

677
00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:53,200
compassion

678
00:26:58,789 --> 00:26:56,159
are left behind again the logical

679
00:27:01,669 --> 00:26:58,799
fallacy in its negative form

680
00:27:01,990 --> 00:27:01,679
it might come as a shock to creationists

681
00:27:05,110 --> 00:27:02,000
but

682
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:05,120
caring and compassion just like every

683
00:27:09,590 --> 00:27:06,960
other emotion

684
00:27:12,710 --> 00:27:09,600
comes about in our species via the

685
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:12,720
process of evolution

686
00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:14,880
scaremongering about feared negative

687
00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:17,600
outcomes of accepting evolution

688
00:27:20,789 --> 00:27:19,520
does not strengthen the case for

689
00:27:23,150 --> 00:27:20,799
creationism

690
00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:23,160
one little bit

691
00:27:26,549 --> 00:27:24,640
[Music]

692
00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:26,559
it's so easy to let ourselves think

693
00:27:33,029 --> 00:27:28,240
about the consequences or

694
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:33,039
outcomes of ideas beliefs or practices

695
00:27:38,389 --> 00:27:36,080
and as we've seen it's

696
00:27:39,269 --> 00:27:38,399
also easy to use these perceived

697
00:27:42,549 --> 00:27:39,279
outcomes to

698
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:42,559
color our reasoning or to give us

699
00:27:49,430 --> 00:27:45,520
faulty ammunition when arguing our point

700
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:49,440
of view

701
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:51,520
knowing a logical fallacy when you hear

702
00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:52,480
one and

703
00:27:57,750 --> 00:27:55,200
even knowing its name is important when

704
00:28:01,190 --> 00:27:57,760
arguing your point of view

705
00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:01,200
however you may come across as arrogant

706
00:28:04,389 --> 00:28:03,600
and not get very far if you call it out

707
00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:04,399
by name

708
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:06,720
to your opponent when you hear it being

709
00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:08,799
used

710
00:28:12,149 --> 00:28:11,360
if your opponent calls you out for using

711
00:28:14,389 --> 00:28:12,159
one

712
00:28:17,430 --> 00:28:14,399
it's time to stop and think about how

713
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:17,440
you are making your case

714
00:28:20,789 --> 00:28:19,600
use your knowledge of logical fallacies

715
00:28:23,510 --> 00:28:20,799
wisely

716
00:28:24,789 --> 00:28:23,520
and remember that even if your point of

717
00:28:27,029 --> 00:28:24,799
view is right

718
00:28:28,389 --> 00:28:27,039
and you know all the pitfalls in arguing

719
00:28:30,870 --> 00:28:28,399
your case

720
00:28:31,990 --> 00:28:30,880
it doesn't always mean you'll win on the

721
00:28:35,350 --> 00:28:32,000
day

722
00:28:37,910 --> 00:28:35,360
and as skeptics we must also remember

723
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:37,920
that we too can be wrong at times

724
00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:40,960
[Music]

725
00:28:52,620 --> 00:28:42,840
i'm michelle bickersma from the vic

726
00:28:52,630 --> 00:28:56,870
[Music]

727
00:29:02,710 --> 00:28:59,909
how's the patient doing in room 1965

728
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:02,720
ah doctor oh dr celestia ward hello good

729
00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:04,000
to see you

730
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:08,240
um yes uh mr

731
00:29:14,710 --> 00:29:13,200
brian dunning yes okay

732
00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:14,720
looks like he's not responding to the

733
00:29:18,789 --> 00:29:16,640
current course of medication

734
00:29:20,230 --> 00:29:18,799
he's not been able to get out of bed for

735
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:20,240
a week now

736
00:29:24,470 --> 00:29:22,640
i thought as much i mean he should

737
00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:24,480
really not be that shade of green

738
00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:26,960
and those blue spots on his toes not

739
00:29:31,990 --> 00:29:28,000
good at all

740
00:29:33,909 --> 00:29:32,000
well we have him on penicillin

741
00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:33,919
but i think i'm going to prescribe some

742
00:29:40,710 --> 00:29:37,440
new medicine we just got in it's called

743
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:40,720
super radix 30c oh

744
00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:43,200
i have not heard of that is is it latin

745
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:43,840
yeah

746
00:29:47,029 --> 00:29:45,600
it sounds like it i'm not sure what it

747
00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:47,039
means and what's

748
00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:49,600
30 c is that is that the temperature it

749
00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:51,600
should be stored or or something

750
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:54,880
oh good question i'll have to ask our

751
00:30:01,269 --> 00:29:57,279
new drug supplier

752
00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:01,279
the uh samuel hannemann homeopathic

753
00:30:07,990 --> 00:30:04,880
remedy company of walla walla washington

754
00:30:10,470 --> 00:30:08,000
homeopathic homeopathic

755
00:30:11,430 --> 00:30:10,480
why are we using a homeopathic product

756
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:11,440
they're cheap

757
00:30:14,870 --> 00:30:13,120
they quoted us the lowest price and you

758
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:14,880
know we're under pressure to uh

759
00:30:20,230 --> 00:30:18,000
economize and what's even better the

760
00:30:22,389 --> 00:30:20,240
representative told me we can use the

761
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:22,399
same bottle of pills

762
00:30:26,149 --> 00:30:24,640
for every condition so heart

763
00:30:30,310 --> 00:30:26,159
palpitations

764
00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:30,320
use super radix 30c blood clots

765
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:34,000
we can use super radix 30c

766
00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:37,440
headaches weekend wait for it we can use

767
00:30:43,269 --> 00:30:41,440
super radix 30c it's going to save us a

768
00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:43,279
fortune and we don't have to worry about

769
00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:44,320
giving patients

770
00:30:49,990 --> 00:30:47,440
the wrong medication ah okay

771
00:30:51,430 --> 00:30:50,000
i i better get back to my paperwork

772
00:30:54,149 --> 00:30:51,440
thank you dr saunders

773
00:30:55,060 --> 00:30:54,159
i'll start my rounds it's okay i've got

774
00:30:57,669 --> 00:30:55,070
lots of those pills

775
00:31:00,950 --> 00:30:57,679
[Music]

776
00:31:03,990 --> 00:31:00,960
to the chief executive

777
00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:04,000
lakeside hospital dear

778
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:09,440
chief i am writing to you about concerns

779
00:31:18,470 --> 00:31:12,720
i have had for some time

780
00:31:22,389 --> 00:31:18,480
about my colleague dr richard saunders

781
00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:22,399
who is on a transfer posting

782
00:31:32,149 --> 00:31:31,509
apart from his habit of eating vegemite

783
00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:32,159
toast

784
00:31:39,909 --> 00:31:36,000
during consultations and offering

785
00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:39,919
patients something called musk sticks

786
00:31:48,149 --> 00:31:44,320
which he claims will cheer them up

787
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:48,159
in fact it seems to make them ill

788
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:52,720
it is his choice of medication

789
00:32:00,230 --> 00:31:56,880
that is of a more immediate concern

790
00:32:01,830 --> 00:32:00,240
i know we are all expected to cut

791
00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:01,840
corners to save

792
00:32:09,110 --> 00:32:04,880
money but i must

793
00:32:12,310 --> 00:32:09,120
question the wisdom of dr saunders

794
00:32:16,630 --> 00:32:12,320
in getting so-called medication

795
00:32:19,669 --> 00:32:16,640
from a homeopathic supplier

796
00:32:22,789 --> 00:32:19,679
i can only hope we are

797
00:32:27,590 --> 00:32:22,799
paying this company in homeopathic

798
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:32,789
yours etc etc

799
00:32:40,549 --> 00:32:37,269
ps next time we have a transfer

800
00:32:43,590 --> 00:32:40,559
let's try dr radford he's a bit of a

801
00:32:47,909 --> 00:32:43,600
square and very strange but

802
00:32:51,269 --> 00:32:47,919
these days we cannot be too picky

803
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:51,279
get that away from me now hell get that

804
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:51,840
away

805
00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:54,880
what what was that look i i i just

806
00:32:57,750 --> 00:32:56,240
checked with mr dunning

807
00:32:59,350 --> 00:32:57,760
and you'll be pleased to know he's

808
00:33:01,350 --> 00:32:59,360
suddenly very active

809
00:33:03,669 --> 00:33:01,360
well that that's good news did you give

810
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:03,679
him more homeopathic medicine

811
00:33:08,470 --> 00:33:06,640
no i gave him a mustache and he ran

812
00:33:15,660 --> 00:33:08,480
screaming out of the room

813
00:33:15,670 --> 00:33:29,750
[Music]

814
00:33:35,110 --> 00:33:33,190
sovereign citizens free men of the land

815
00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:35,120
these are terms we are hearing more and

816
00:33:39,590 --> 00:33:36,960
more these days

817
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:39,600
here in australia normally this is the

818
00:33:44,630 --> 00:33:41,440
sort of thing we'd hear about

819
00:33:46,230 --> 00:33:44,640
from the united states news programs

820
00:33:49,350 --> 00:33:46,240
possibly are in the habit of

821
00:33:50,149 --> 00:33:49,360
having a wacky crazy zany story at the

822
00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:50,159
end of the

823
00:33:58,789 --> 00:33:55,519
wrap off we have only in america

824
00:34:01,669 --> 00:33:58,799
well now we have this sort of thing

825
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:01,679
happening here in australia

826
00:34:05,669 --> 00:34:03,840
well more and more it's probably been

827
00:34:10,069 --> 00:34:05,679
happening for a while

828
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:10,079
and appearing from news.com.edu

829
00:34:16,710 --> 00:34:13,440
is a story by rowan smith

830
00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:16,720
coronavirus victoria sovereign

831
00:34:23,109 --> 00:34:20,800
citizens tactic infuriating cops

832
00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:23,119
some victorians think they are beyond

833
00:34:26,470 --> 00:34:24,240
the law

834
00:34:27,669 --> 00:34:26,480
calling themselves quote sovereign

835
00:34:30,950 --> 00:34:27,679
citizens

836
00:34:33,669 --> 00:34:30,960
with a move that's infuriating police

837
00:34:33,990 --> 00:34:33,679
victoria's chief police commissioner

838
00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:34,000
shane

839
00:34:38,629 --> 00:34:36,800
patton has revealed that some victorians

840
00:34:40,629 --> 00:34:38,639
think they are beyond the law

841
00:34:42,869 --> 00:34:40,639
and are calling themselves sovereign

842
00:34:43,829 --> 00:34:42,879
citizens in the last week we've seen a

843
00:34:45,829 --> 00:34:43,839
trend

844
00:34:48,389 --> 00:34:45,839
an emergence if you like of groups of

845
00:34:49,510 --> 00:34:48,399
people small groups but nonetheless

846
00:34:51,669 --> 00:34:49,520
concerning groups

847
00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:51,679
who classify themselves as sovereign

848
00:34:55,829 --> 00:34:52,720
citizen

849
00:34:57,030 --> 00:34:55,839
whatever that might mean people who

850
00:34:59,510 --> 00:34:57,040
don't think the law

851
00:35:00,710 --> 00:34:59,520
applies to them we've seen them at

852
00:35:03,589 --> 00:35:00,720
checkpoints

853
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:03,599
baiting police not providing a name and

854
00:35:06,950 --> 00:35:04,560
address

855
00:35:09,750 --> 00:35:06,960
on at least four occasions in the last

856
00:35:10,630 --> 00:35:09,760
week we've had to smash the windows of

857
00:35:13,270 --> 00:35:10,640
cars

858
00:35:14,950 --> 00:35:13,280
and pull people out to provide details

859
00:35:17,190 --> 00:35:14,960
because they weren't adhering

860
00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:17,200
to the chief health officer's

861
00:35:21,190 --> 00:35:19,440
coronavirus guidelines

862
00:35:22,470 --> 00:35:21,200
they weren't providing their name and

863
00:35:25,030 --> 00:35:22,480
address we

864
00:35:25,510 --> 00:35:25,040
don't want to be doing that but people

865
00:35:27,829 --> 00:35:25,520
have to

866
00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:27,839
absolutely understand there are

867
00:35:33,190 --> 00:35:30,160
consequences for your actions

868
00:35:35,589 --> 00:35:33,200
and if you're not doing the right thing

869
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:35,599
we will not hesitate to issue

870
00:35:39,349 --> 00:35:36,560
infringements

871
00:35:40,550 --> 00:35:39,359
to arrest you to detain you where it's

872
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:40,560
appropriate

873
00:35:44,470 --> 00:35:42,800
eve black became the face of the

874
00:35:46,790 --> 00:35:44,480
sovereign citizen movement

875
00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:46,800
when she filmed herself refusing to give

876
00:35:51,829 --> 00:35:47,520
police

877
00:35:57,109 --> 00:35:55,510
um thanks

878
00:35:58,630 --> 00:35:57,119
i think you can hear me today you can

879
00:36:02,150 --> 00:35:58,640
hear me fine that's

880
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:02,160
fine um reasons for travelling ah

881
00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:04,560
have i deserved the peace today have i

882
00:36:09,349 --> 00:36:06,079
disturbed the peace

883
00:36:10,790 --> 00:36:09,359
no no well

884
00:36:12,630 --> 00:36:10,800
i don't need to tell you that i don't

885
00:36:14,390 --> 00:36:12,640
know you okay

886
00:36:16,069 --> 00:36:14,400
so wherever you come from today i don't

887
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:16,079
need to answer your questions

888
00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:19,200
no have i committed a crime have i

889
00:36:29,510 --> 00:36:21,440
committed a crime

890
00:36:30,390 --> 00:36:29,520
she was later arrested and charged but

891
00:36:33,670 --> 00:36:30,400
police

892
00:36:34,790 --> 00:36:33,680
had to break her window to get access to

893
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:34,800
her

894
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:37,440
daniel andrews and he's the current

895
00:36:42,069 --> 00:36:39,680
premier of the state of victoria

896
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:42,079
has flagged potential tightening of

897
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:43,119
mandatory mask

898
00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:45,599
rules after reports young people were

899
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:47,440
telling frontline officers

900
00:36:51,030 --> 00:36:49,920
they can't wear one due to medical

901
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:51,040
reasons

902
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:53,200
currently there are no requirements to

903
00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:55,200
provide proof

904
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:58,560
the victorian premier says if we need to

905
00:37:01,910 --> 00:36:59,520
tie that up

906
00:37:02,790 --> 00:37:01,920
of course we will i'll just take a deep

907
00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:02,800
breath

908
00:37:06,790 --> 00:37:04,800
is there anything worse than someone

909
00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:06,800
pretending to be unwell in order to get

910
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:08,160
out of wearing a mask

911
00:37:13,510 --> 00:37:11,200
he said like seriously

912
00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:13,520
you need to wear a mask you will be

913
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:14,480
pulled up

914
00:37:19,670 --> 00:37:17,520
if i've got to change the rules again

915
00:37:20,630 --> 00:37:19,680
if i've got to go further then of course

916
00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:20,640
we will

917
00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:23,200
we're not going to have police being

918
00:37:25,829 --> 00:37:24,480
lied to

919
00:37:27,829 --> 00:37:25,839
we're not going to have people just

920
00:37:30,069 --> 00:37:27,839
flouting these rules

921
00:37:32,150 --> 00:37:30,079
mr andrews said if it's not too much to

922
00:37:32,870 --> 00:37:32,160
ask an intensive care nurse to wear a

923
00:37:35,270 --> 00:37:32,880
mask

924
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:35,280
it's not too much to ask you to wear a

925
00:37:38,710 --> 00:37:36,000
mask in order

926
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:38,720
to avoid that nurse having to treat more

927
00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:39,440
patients

928
00:37:44,150 --> 00:37:42,160
than they otherwise would the notion of

929
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:44,160
lying about your health status to avoid

930
00:37:47,589 --> 00:37:45,599
wearing a mask

931
00:37:48,710 --> 00:37:47,599
and in fact putting other people's

932
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:48,720
health at risk

933
00:37:53,349 --> 00:37:51,760
that's shameful shameful he said i'll

934
00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:53,359
have a conversation with the chief

935
00:37:57,349 --> 00:37:54,880
commissioner about that

936
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:57,359
and if a further change needs to be made

937
00:38:02,870 --> 00:37:58,720
of course we will

938
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:02,880
victoria has reported 11 deaths and 439

939
00:38:07,990 --> 00:38:04,400
new cases today

940
00:38:10,230 --> 00:38:08,000
and that was on the uh the 4th of august

941
00:38:11,349 --> 00:38:10,240
with premier daniel andrews announcing

942
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:11,359
tough new

943
00:38:17,910 --> 00:38:15,359
5 000 on the spot fines for

944
00:38:18,950 --> 00:38:17,920
quote selfish end quote isolation

945
00:38:20,790 --> 00:38:18,960
breaches

946
00:38:23,589 --> 00:38:20,800
it comes after the state ordered a

947
00:38:27,150 --> 00:38:23,599
widespread retail shutdown on monday

948
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:27,160
that is expected to lead to a further

949
00:38:33,390 --> 00:38:30,480
250 000 job losses

950
00:38:34,790 --> 00:38:33,400
and that story comes to us from

951
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:34,800
news.com.u

952
00:38:38,790 --> 00:38:37,920
written by rowan smith and a link will

953
00:38:41,829 --> 00:38:38,800
appear

954
00:38:43,750 --> 00:38:41,839
in this week's show notes

955
00:38:46,870 --> 00:38:43,760
also we can look over at the

956
00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:46,880
conversation theconversation.com

957
00:38:53,190 --> 00:38:50,079
to a story written by kaz

958
00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:53,200
ross living people

959
00:39:00,069 --> 00:38:56,240
who are the sovereign citizens or

960
00:39:02,069 --> 00:39:00,079
sovsits and why do they believe they

961
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:02,079
have immunity from the law

962
00:39:07,270 --> 00:39:05,280
and this was published on july the 28th

963
00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:07,280
you might have seen articles or comments

964
00:39:12,069 --> 00:39:08,800
on social media lately

965
00:39:15,990 --> 00:39:12,079
alluding to sovereign citizens

966
00:39:18,630 --> 00:39:16,000
or sovsets for short with some reports

967
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:18,640
suggesting covet 19 government

968
00:39:21,990 --> 00:39:21,280
restrictions have driven a surge of

969
00:39:24,870 --> 00:39:22,000
interest

970
00:39:25,750 --> 00:39:24,880
in this movement so who are these

971
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:25,760
self-styled

972
00:39:29,190 --> 00:39:28,320
sovereign citizens and what do they

973
00:39:31,190 --> 00:39:29,200
believe

974
00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:31,200
sovereign citizens are concerned with

975
00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:33,520
the legal framework of

976
00:39:37,829 --> 00:39:36,400
society they believe all people are born

977
00:39:40,790 --> 00:39:37,839
free with rights

978
00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:40,800
but these natural rights are being

979
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:43,280
constrained by corporations

980
00:39:46,870 --> 00:39:45,280
and they see governments as artificial

981
00:39:50,310 --> 00:39:46,880
corporations they believe

982
00:39:53,829 --> 00:39:50,320
citizens are in an oppressive contract

983
00:39:54,390 --> 00:39:53,839
with the government sovsets reportedly

984
00:39:57,030 --> 00:39:54,400
believe

985
00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:57,040
that by declaring themselves quote

986
00:40:01,430 --> 00:39:58,000
living people

987
00:40:03,990 --> 00:40:01,440
or quote natural people they can

988
00:40:06,150 --> 00:40:04,000
break this oppressive contract and avoid

989
00:40:09,510 --> 00:40:06,160
restrictions such as certain

990
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:09,520
rates taxes and fines

991
00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:12,000
or particular government rules on

992
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:13,040
mandatory

993
00:40:18,790 --> 00:40:16,079
mask wearing the sofsit movement

994
00:40:19,829 --> 00:40:18,800
arose in america decades ago with roots

995
00:40:22,230 --> 00:40:19,839
in the american

996
00:40:23,109 --> 00:40:22,240
patriot movement some religious

997
00:40:25,829 --> 00:40:23,119
communities

998
00:40:26,870 --> 00:40:25,839
and tax protest groups it has also been

999
00:40:29,829 --> 00:40:26,880
known as the quote

1000
00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:29,839
free man end quote movement

1001
00:40:35,109 --> 00:40:32,000
reinterpreting the law

1002
00:40:35,589 --> 00:40:35,119
sovsets see themselves as sovereign and

1003
00:40:37,829 --> 00:40:35,599
not

1004
00:40:39,750 --> 00:40:37,839
bound by the laws of the country in

1005
00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:39,760
which they physically live

1006
00:40:45,589 --> 00:40:42,800
accepting a law or regulations

1007
00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:45,599
means they have waived their rights as a

1008
00:40:48,710 --> 00:40:46,480
sovereign

1009
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:48,720
and have accepted the contract with the

1010
00:40:53,109 --> 00:40:49,760
government

1011
00:40:56,230 --> 00:40:53,119
according to sovsit belief

1012
00:40:58,870 --> 00:40:56,240
the sovcept movement doesn't have a

1013
00:41:01,030 --> 00:40:58,880
single leader central doctrine or

1014
00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:01,040
centralized collection of documents

1015
00:41:05,190 --> 00:41:04,160
it is based on their reinterpretation of

1016
00:41:07,829 --> 00:41:05,200
the law

1017
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:07,839
and there are many legal document

1018
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:08,560
templates

1019
00:41:15,349 --> 00:41:12,240
on the internet for sovsit to use

1020
00:41:19,430 --> 00:41:15,359
for example avoid paying fines or rates

1021
00:41:20,630 --> 00:41:19,440
they see as unfair soft sits tend not to

1022
00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:20,640
follow conventional

1023
00:41:24,870 --> 00:41:23,440
legal argument some have engaged in

1024
00:41:27,589 --> 00:41:24,880
repeated court action

1025
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:27,599
or even been declared vexatious

1026
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:28,400
lineigans

1027
00:41:31,430 --> 00:41:30,880
by the courts the sovset movement has

1028
00:41:34,390 --> 00:41:31,440
many

1029
00:41:36,630 --> 00:41:34,400
local variations but there are some key

1030
00:41:39,670 --> 00:41:36,640
commonalities across the australian

1031
00:41:43,030 --> 00:41:39,680
softsit movement key beliefs

1032
00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:43,040
and phrases a central belief

1033
00:41:46,950 --> 00:41:45,599
according to news reports is that the

1034
00:41:49,990 --> 00:41:46,960
australian government

1035
00:41:52,470 --> 00:41:50,000
the police and other government agencies

1036
00:41:54,150 --> 00:41:52,480
are corporations believers feel they

1037
00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:54,160
must be on guard to avoid

1038
00:41:57,349 --> 00:41:56,079
entering into a contract with the

1039
00:42:00,550 --> 00:41:57,359
corporation

1040
00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:00,560
they often do this by stating

1041
00:42:06,150 --> 00:42:04,160
quote i do not consent in quote

1042
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:06,160
and trying to get the police officer or

1043
00:42:12,710 --> 00:42:09,520
official to recognize them as a quote

1044
00:42:16,950 --> 00:42:12,720
living then quote or quote

1045
00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:16,960
natural end quote being and therefore

1046
00:42:21,990 --> 00:42:20,560
as a sovereign sovsits are often careful

1047
00:42:24,069 --> 00:42:22,000
to avoid showing id

1048
00:42:25,109 --> 00:42:24,079
such as driver's license or giving their

1049
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:25,119
name an address

1050
00:42:31,430 --> 00:42:28,240
saying quote i understand and quote

1051
00:42:34,790 --> 00:42:31,440
also risks being seen to agree

1052
00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:34,800
to the contract so sovsits will repeat

1053
00:42:39,990 --> 00:42:36,480
the phrase

1054
00:42:43,349 --> 00:42:40,000
quote i comprehend end quote

1055
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:43,359
to show they are refusing the contract

1056
00:42:50,069 --> 00:42:46,640
many reject their country's constitution

1057
00:42:53,349 --> 00:42:50,079
as false and reportedly refer to

1058
00:42:55,910 --> 00:42:53,359
the magna carta of 1215

1059
00:42:56,790 --> 00:42:55,920
as the only true legal document

1060
00:42:59,910 --> 00:42:56,800
constraining

1061
00:43:01,510 --> 00:42:59,920
arbitrary power sofsits often come to

1062
00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:01,520
the attention of authorities due to

1063
00:43:05,430 --> 00:43:03,040
driving offences

1064
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:05,440
it is a core belief of the movement that

1065
00:43:09,589 --> 00:43:06,800
quote sovereigns

1066
00:43:10,309 --> 00:43:09,599
and quote have the right to travel

1067
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:10,319
freely

1068
00:43:15,030 --> 00:43:13,200
without the need for a driver's license

1069
00:43:18,230 --> 00:43:15,040
vehicle registration

1070
00:43:20,630 --> 00:43:18,240
or insurance until covert 19

1071
00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:20,640
the main threat seems to have been in

1072
00:43:24,790 --> 00:43:22,480
committing road offenses

1073
00:43:25,990 --> 00:43:24,800
more recently actions protesting

1074
00:43:28,790 --> 00:43:26,000
measures aimed at limiting

1075
00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:28,800
the spread of covet 19 have been linked

1076
00:43:32,630 --> 00:43:29,920
to the sovereign

1077
00:43:34,309 --> 00:43:32,640
citizen movement and that story can be

1078
00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:34,319
found over at the conversation

1079
00:43:40,790 --> 00:43:37,440
the conversation.com written by

1080
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:40,800
kaz ross lecturer in humanities

1081
00:43:48,230 --> 00:43:45,040
asian studies university of tasmania

1082
00:43:51,270 --> 00:43:48,240
now the blog posting over at skeptoid

1083
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:51,280
the skeptoid blog the legal gibberish

1084
00:43:57,349 --> 00:43:54,560
of free men on the land

1085
00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:57,359
and was written by mike rothschild and

1086
00:44:01,109 --> 00:43:58,000
published

1087
00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:01,119
in october 2013.

1088
00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:04,160
it's certainly worth a read and it says

1089
00:44:07,670 --> 00:44:05,280
in part

1090
00:44:08,870 --> 00:44:07,680
you're driving down the street going as

1091
00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:08,880
fast as you please

1092
00:44:13,430 --> 00:44:11,760
and ignoring traffic laws you didn't

1093
00:44:15,829 --> 00:44:13,440
consent to

1094
00:44:18,069 --> 00:44:15,839
after running a red light enforcing said

1095
00:44:20,790 --> 00:44:18,079
laws which don't apply to you

1096
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:20,800
you see the blue flashing lights of a

1097
00:44:24,710 --> 00:44:22,720
police cruiser

1098
00:44:26,309 --> 00:44:24,720
while you are in your common law rights

1099
00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:26,319
to demand any sum of money

1100
00:44:30,390 --> 00:44:28,640
to pull you over you decide to make it

1101
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:30,400
easy on the government enforcer

1102
00:44:34,390 --> 00:44:32,880
and stop when the police officer

1103
00:44:37,750 --> 00:44:34,400
approaches your car

1104
00:44:40,870 --> 00:44:37,760
you immediately ask under what authority

1105
00:44:42,870 --> 00:44:40,880
and under what law are you acting

1106
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:42,880
the government enforcer can't quote the

1107
00:44:47,030 --> 00:44:44,400
common law statute

1108
00:44:49,270 --> 00:44:47,040
that authorizes him to act why would he

1109
00:44:51,349 --> 00:44:49,280
he's only an agent of the state

1110
00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:51,359
only demand to see your license

1111
00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:53,920
registration and proof of insurance

1112
00:44:58,069 --> 00:44:56,640
however these statutory obligations

1113
00:45:00,630 --> 00:44:58,079
don't apply to you

1114
00:45:01,589 --> 00:45:00,640
and you refuse the officer asks what

1115
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:01,599
your name is

1116
00:45:07,109 --> 00:45:04,640
to which you reply are you seeking a

1117
00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:07,119
publicly registered legal personality

1118
00:45:12,150 --> 00:45:08,880
created by the state

1119
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:12,160
the officer predictably orders you out

1120
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:13,680
of the car at gunpoint

1121
00:45:18,150 --> 00:45:16,480
arrests you and reads you your rights

1122
00:45:19,829 --> 00:45:18,160
when asked if you understand these

1123
00:45:22,069 --> 00:45:19,839
rights you reply

1124
00:45:23,349 --> 00:45:22,079
i do not understand under that statement

1125
00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:23,359
nor do i understand

1126
00:45:29,670 --> 00:45:26,560
under any statement then you're led into

1127
00:45:32,550 --> 00:45:29,680
the police car what am i talking about

1128
00:45:34,550 --> 00:45:32,560
what does all this gibberish mean it's

1129
00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:34,560
just a sample of the standard tactics

1130
00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:35,760
used by the

1131
00:45:39,710 --> 00:45:39,280
free man on the land movement also known

1132
00:45:42,950 --> 00:45:39,720
as

1133
00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:42,960
f-o-l-t it's a version

1134
00:45:46,230 --> 00:45:44,800
of the sovereign citizen movement that's

1135
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:46,240
rapidly catching on

1136
00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:49,440
with snowflakes in canada and england

1137
00:45:53,829 --> 00:45:51,440
and causing an increasing amount of

1138
00:45:54,470 --> 00:45:53,839
chaos with courts and judges who don't

1139
00:45:57,589 --> 00:45:54,480
know

1140
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:57,599
how to combat its nuance and the

1141
00:46:02,670 --> 00:45:59,760
belligerent arrogance of those

1142
00:46:05,349 --> 00:46:02,680
who apply it to detractors it's a

1143
00:46:07,430 --> 00:46:05,359
jargon-laden way to pretend the laws of

1144
00:46:09,990 --> 00:46:07,440
your country don't apply to you

1145
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:10,000
but to its advocates it's nothing less

1146
00:46:13,270 --> 00:46:10,800
than grabbing

1147
00:46:15,510 --> 00:46:13,280
freedom back from an illegal government

1148
00:46:17,829 --> 00:46:15,520
that took it away from you at birth

1149
00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:17,839
and i will leave that there just wetting

1150
00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:19,680
your appetite and you can

1151
00:46:25,349 --> 00:46:22,640
certainly go to the skeptoid blog and

1152
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:25,359
read the rest of that for yourself

1153
00:46:31,750 --> 00:46:28,560
but i find it increasingly interesting

1154
00:46:34,790 --> 00:46:31,760
slash increasingly infuriating

1155
00:46:38,230 --> 00:46:34,800
and exasperating to see these people

1156
00:46:40,790 --> 00:46:38,240
in a time of international crisis

1157
00:46:41,670 --> 00:46:40,800
hitting home hard especially for those

1158
00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:41,680
people

1159
00:46:44,870 --> 00:46:43,760
in the state of victoria and the city of

1160
00:46:48,069 --> 00:46:44,880
melbourne

1161
00:46:51,349 --> 00:46:48,079
who continue to

1162
00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:51,359
act upon these crazy conspiracy theories

1163
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:52,319
really

1164
00:46:59,309 --> 00:46:55,520
and asserting rights they don't have

1165
00:47:00,630 --> 00:46:59,319
and basically really giving up their

1166
00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:00,640
responsibility

1167
00:47:03,750 --> 00:47:03,359
to the wider community ultimately i

1168
00:47:06,630 --> 00:47:03,760
think

1169
00:47:08,470 --> 00:47:06,640
it's an incredibly selfish thing to do

1170
00:47:09,349 --> 00:47:08,480
to stamp your foot and demand your

1171
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:09,359
rights

1172
00:47:13,510 --> 00:47:12,480
at the expense of your fellow citizens

1173
00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:13,520
especially

1174
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:16,560
if they end up in the hospital

1175
00:47:21,190 --> 00:47:19,440
or dead and i think i mentioned on last

1176
00:47:23,910 --> 00:47:21,200
week's episode for a long time

1177
00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:23,920
these sort of people were tolerated as

1178
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:25,200
funny

1179
00:47:31,349 --> 00:47:28,400
a bit extreme sometimes a pain

1180
00:47:34,870 --> 00:47:31,359
but more or less not too serious

1181
00:47:36,630 --> 00:47:34,880
conspiracy theories in general really

1182
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:36,640
we denigrate them the tinfoil hat

1183
00:47:41,430 --> 00:47:38,720
brigade and on and on it goes

1184
00:47:43,349 --> 00:47:41,440
but at this time we can see they

1185
00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:43,359
actually do

1186
00:47:49,430 --> 00:47:47,040
not only cause a nuisance for

1187
00:47:51,030 --> 00:47:49,440
police who at the moment that's the last

1188
00:47:53,030 --> 00:47:51,040
thing they need

1189
00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:53,040
but seriously are a danger to the

1190
00:47:56,710 --> 00:47:54,720
general community

1191
00:47:58,470 --> 00:47:56,720
so we'll be keeping an eye on these uh

1192
00:47:59,510 --> 00:47:58,480
free men on the land these sovereign

1193
00:48:01,750 --> 00:47:59,520
citizens

1194
00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:01,760
over the next months here in australia

1195
00:48:05,030 --> 00:48:03,119
and i think

1196
00:48:06,630 --> 00:48:05,040
there might be an article or a feature

1197
00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:06,640
coming up in the next issue of the

1198
00:48:10,870 --> 00:48:08,240
skeptic the journal from australian

1199
00:48:13,750 --> 00:48:10,880
skeptics about this very topic

1200
00:48:14,549 --> 00:48:13,760
and it's a good opportunity to uh remind

1201
00:48:19,910 --> 00:48:14,559
you

1202
00:48:21,270 --> 00:48:19,920
to the skeptical movement here in

1203
00:48:25,750 --> 00:48:21,280
australia

1204
00:48:29,349 --> 00:48:25,760
tim endum the executive officer and

1205
00:48:32,829 --> 00:48:29,359
editor of that fine journal the skeptic

1206
00:48:34,950 --> 00:48:32,839
and maybe you too can have something

1207
00:48:45,910 --> 00:48:34,960
published

1208
00:48:50,470 --> 00:48:48,549
hi my name's joe thornley and i'd like

1209
00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:50,480
you to join my co

1210
00:48:53,829 --> 00:48:52,400
i'd like you to listen to my podcast

1211
00:48:56,150 --> 00:48:53,839
about cults

1212
00:48:58,150 --> 00:48:56,160
called zealot it's available pretty much

1213
00:49:00,950 --> 00:48:58,160
anywhere you find podcasts with further

1214
00:49:03,109 --> 00:49:00,960
reading on the zealot facebook page

1215
00:49:04,950 --> 00:49:03,119
each episode a guest joins me to talk

1216
00:49:06,790 --> 00:49:04,960
about a specific cult where we answer

1217
00:49:11,829 --> 00:49:06,800
the big questions like

1218
00:49:11,839 --> 00:49:20,630
and does anyone think they're jesus

1219
00:49:24,470 --> 00:49:22,230
pop over to my compound and have a

1220
00:49:27,910 --> 00:49:24,480
listen i've just mixed up a fresh batch

1221
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:43,109
oh sell it

1222
00:49:47,430 --> 00:49:44,710
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1223
00:49:51,510 --> 00:49:47,440
zone now coming up coming up

1224
00:49:53,510 --> 00:49:51,520
next week on sunday the 16th of august

1225
00:49:54,549 --> 00:49:53,520
and that's just after the next episode

1226
00:49:57,750 --> 00:49:54,559
of the skeptic zone

1227
00:49:58,950 --> 00:49:57,760
goes online sunday the 16th of august 10

1228
00:50:03,829 --> 00:49:58,960
a.m

1229
00:50:06,950 --> 00:50:03,839
as it's known australian eastern

1230
00:50:10,549 --> 00:50:06,960
standard time i will be hosting an

1231
00:50:12,549 --> 00:50:10,559
online chat video chat

1232
00:50:13,910 --> 00:50:12,559
on behalf of the canberra skeptics in

1233
00:50:16,230 --> 00:50:13,920
fact this is an event

1234
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:16,240
being hosted by the canberra skeptics

1235
00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:18,160
and it's going to be a panel discussion

1236
00:50:21,750 --> 00:50:20,400
and on that panel susan gerbic from

1237
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:21,760
gorilla skepticism

1238
00:50:25,589 --> 00:50:23,680
on wikipedia and a regular contributor

1239
00:50:28,390 --> 00:50:25,599
to the skeptic zone

1240
00:50:29,910 --> 00:50:28,400
dr steve novella from the skeptic's

1241
00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:29,920
guide to the universe

1242
00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:32,880
and our very own jessica singer who is

1243
00:50:36,230 --> 00:50:33,839
the president

1244
00:50:36,950 --> 00:50:36,240
of australian skeptics inc and this will

1245
00:50:39,190 --> 00:50:36,960
be about

1246
00:50:40,230 --> 00:50:39,200
successes and failures of science

1247
00:50:42,710 --> 00:50:40,240
skepticism

1248
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:42,720
and critical thinking and if you'd like

1249
00:50:47,990 --> 00:50:44,400
to take part in that

1250
00:50:51,950 --> 00:50:48,000
view have a look join in

1251
00:50:53,670 --> 00:50:51,960
and all the rest of it just head for

1252
00:50:55,109 --> 00:50:53,680
canberraskeptics.org

1253
00:50:56,710 --> 00:50:55,119
certainly there will be a link in this

1254
00:50:57,510 --> 00:50:56,720
week's show notes but it's very easy to

1255
00:50:59,829 --> 00:50:57,520
find

1256
00:51:02,150 --> 00:50:59,839
if you google canberra skeptics or head

1257
00:51:03,750 --> 00:51:02,160
to canberrasskeptics.org

1258
00:51:05,670 --> 00:51:03,760
you can find that information for

1259
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:05,680
yourself and i hope

1260
00:51:13,030 --> 00:51:09,280
that you will join us on the 16th

1261
00:51:14,710 --> 00:51:13,040
here in australia which will be the 15th

1262
00:51:16,230 --> 00:51:14,720
in north america and just check your

1263
00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:16,240
local time zones

1264
00:51:22,150 --> 00:51:18,720
wherever you are around the world in

1265
00:51:25,510 --> 00:51:22,160
other exciting news i had my second

1266
00:51:29,109 --> 00:51:25,520
day or half day i said

1267
00:51:30,069 --> 00:51:29,119
half day of paid work in the tv and film

1268
00:51:32,710 --> 00:51:30,079
profession

1269
00:51:33,430 --> 00:51:32,720
just last week when i say my second day

1270
00:51:37,190 --> 00:51:33,440
i mean

1271
00:51:39,589 --> 00:51:37,200
for 2020 wow how about that

1272
00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:39,599
every little bit helps and uh every

1273
00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:41,280
little bit helps when it comes to

1274
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:42,960
contributions from skeptic zone

1275
00:51:47,990 --> 00:51:44,640
listeners just like you

1276
00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:48,000
and in fact you can thank well if you

1277
00:51:49,990 --> 00:51:49,680
enjoy the show i hope you enjoy the show

1278
00:51:52,309 --> 00:51:50,000
you can

1279
00:51:53,990 --> 00:51:52,319
thank all the people who do contribute

1280
00:51:56,309 --> 00:51:54,000
via paypal patreon

1281
00:51:58,390 --> 00:51:56,319
for the fact that you are listening to

1282
00:52:00,150 --> 00:51:58,400
the show right now so thank you people

1283
00:52:02,069 --> 00:52:00,160
thank you yes thank you thank you very

1284
00:52:03,829 --> 00:52:02,079
much all those people who contribute

1285
00:52:05,589 --> 00:52:03,839
coming up on next week's show i think

1286
00:52:08,710 --> 00:52:05,599
more logical fallacies with

1287
00:52:09,670 --> 00:52:08,720
the fabulous michelle biggesmar but for

1288
00:52:11,670 --> 00:52:09,680
this week

1289
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:11,680
this is richard saunders signing off

1290
00:52:15,750 --> 00:52:13,119
once again

1291
00:52:21,430 --> 00:52:15,760
as if i can go really anywhere else from

1292
00:52:24,710 --> 00:52:23,190
you've been listening to the skeptic

1293
00:52:27,870 --> 00:52:24,720
zone podcast

1294
00:52:29,270 --> 00:52:27,880
please visit our website at

1295
00:52:32,309 --> 00:52:29,280
www.skepticzone.tv

1296
00:52:34,309 --> 00:52:32,319
for show notes contacts and to access

1297
00:52:37,829 --> 00:52:34,319
the back catalog of episodes

1298
00:52:39,910 --> 00:52:37,839
going back to 2008 you can follow the

1299
00:52:43,349 --> 00:52:39,920
skeptic zone podcast on twitter

1300
00:52:46,950 --> 00:52:43,359
at skepticzone visit our facebook page

1301
00:52:48,309 --> 00:52:46,960
or leave a review on itunes you can also

1302
00:52:51,510 --> 00:52:48,319
support the skeptic zone

1303
00:52:52,309 --> 00:52:51,520
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

1304
00:52:55,190 --> 00:52:52,319
podcast

1305
00:52:56,950 --> 00:52:55,200
is an independent production the views

1306
00:52:57,430 --> 00:52:56,960
and opinions expressed on the skeptic

1307
00:52:59,430 --> 00:52:57,440
zone

1308
00:53:00,630 --> 00:52:59,440
are not necessarily those of australian

1309
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:00,640
skeptics or

1310
00:53:13,349 --> 00:53:02,930
any other skeptical organization

1311
00:53:16,870 --> 00:53:15,109
hello to the afterthoughts the people

1312
00:53:18,470 --> 00:53:16,880
who listen after the music

1313
00:53:20,230 --> 00:53:18,480
and for those people who don't know why

1314
00:53:21,670 --> 00:53:20,240
the hell i'm speaking after the music

1315
00:53:22,710 --> 00:53:21,680
because you're listening to the show for

1316
00:53:25,750 --> 00:53:22,720
the first time hello

1317
00:53:29,190 --> 00:53:25,760
hello i have a d10

1318
00:53:31,670 --> 00:53:29,200
d10 10-sided die

1319
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:31,680
there it is and i'm going to roll it

1320
00:53:36,870 --> 00:53:32,880
three times

1321
00:53:39,270 --> 00:53:36,880
and it's uh your task

1322
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:39,280
should you decide to accept it to guess

1323
00:53:43,030 --> 00:53:40,880
what numbers are going to come up

1324
00:53:44,950 --> 00:53:43,040
now where's my skeptic's own pat i hear

1325
00:53:47,349 --> 00:53:44,960
this okay

1326
00:53:48,470 --> 00:53:47,359
oops hitting the microphone always like

1327
00:53:51,829 --> 00:53:48,480
to write these numbers down

1328
00:53:53,430 --> 00:53:51,839
get them right so here we go i'm gonna

1329
00:53:55,990 --> 00:53:53,440
roll the die

1330
00:53:56,549 --> 00:53:56,000
use your predicting magic powers or dumb

1331
00:54:01,910 --> 00:53:56,559
luck

1332
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:05,910
today's first number on the skeptic zone

1333
00:54:12,150 --> 00:54:08,960
dice is die

1334
00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:12,160
ten ten

1335
00:54:17,349 --> 00:54:13,920
i know susan gerbic always hopes for

1336
00:54:18,870 --> 00:54:17,359
number five susan i'll see what i can do

1337
00:54:19,250 --> 00:54:18,880
well i can roll the dice we'll see what

1338
00:54:20,710 --> 00:54:19,260
happens

1339
00:54:23,750 --> 00:54:20,720
[Music]

1340
00:54:25,109 --> 00:54:23,760
oh it's a three

1341
00:54:27,589 --> 00:54:25,119
how are you going there at home let's

1342
00:54:31,270 --> 00:54:29,349
if you're in the car kids kids in the

1343
00:54:32,549 --> 00:54:31,280
back seat what's the next number going

1344
00:54:40,870 --> 00:54:32,559
to be come on

1345
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:44,230
ah susan susan susan it's five

1346
00:54:49,030 --> 00:54:47,520
there you go how about that

1347
00:54:50,950 --> 00:54:49,040
i keep saying i should video this

1348
00:54:51,670 --> 00:54:50,960
because people say i'm making it up to

1349
00:54:53,670 --> 00:54:51,680
um

1350
00:54:55,109 --> 00:54:53,680
for gags or to make it funny no no it's

1351
00:54:58,710 --> 00:54:55,119
exactly the numbers that come out